A little background here: Disney's legal team has ordered all attractions to be reviewed for safety enhancements when they go down for a major rehab. You've seen the effects of this order if you've seen the new loading gates at places like Thunder Mountain.
To that, I say bravo. However, I throw in my two-bit opinion by saying that the right personnel can be as important, if not more, than physical changes in promoting ride safety.
Smart, experienced operators can anticipate trouble, and either prevent it, or stop a bad situation before it becomes an injury accident. If Disney is looking at load gates and better restraint systems as an enhancement to top-quality personnel, I hope we'll all welcome that.
But if Disney see loading gates, etc. as an excuse for more cutbacks in personnel, let me say that these "improvements" will not make for safer attractions. Disney's wages for attractions employees have lost significant buying power over the years, making it impossible for high-qualified attractions employees to stay with the company for years.
High employee turnover, and a lack of employee experience damages guest safety. I urge Disney to consider spending more on retaining top attractions employees as another sound investment in guest safety.
Now, as for Splash Mountain, I'll say this: Over-the-shoulder restraints on flume rides are nuts. One of those boats flips, and people die.
Let's not forget that the most important safety feature on Splash Mountain is its height restriction. That eliminates two safety dangers: Little kids who are two small to be restrained by the ride vehicle when it is operating at full motion and little kids are are too young to know better than to hop out of a moving amusement park ride.
We've talked about the need for better restraint systems on flume rides in another thread. (That one focused on Dudley Do-Right at Universal's Islands of Adventure.) I, for one, would welcome a sensible restraint system on Splash, as well. (Seat belts?)
But if Disney's lawyers are asking for a restraint system based on the incident at Roger Rabbit, they are making a mistake. If Disney thinks that the current no-restraint system, or even a lap-belt restraint is insufficient to protect little kids on Splash, I say--raise the height limit. Make it 48 inches, or even 52, to ensure that little kids aren't put at risk.
Don't install a system that potentially *increases* the risk to adults who do respect the rules. I know that the chances of a flume log flipping are close to infinitesimal. But we're talking about a system to protect against something with near-infinitesimal probability anyway.
I wonder if someone in Imagineering didn't leak this story in an effort to create an uproar and kill off a bad idea, once and for all. If that is indeed the case... please, let me help.
*sigh*
You know what else this means. No more cuddling and holding your girlfriend/wife close during the ride. You'll have to tap her head in between the shoulder restraints.
What a crock.
Can't someone invent some sort of sliding restraint. Something like the padded lap-restraints they have on Jurassic Park, but instead of being lowered, they slide back onto the lap of the person? Then the person sitting in front of the now-restrained person would do the same. This would still lower the number of people per boat, but would be far less dangerous and uncomfortable than the shoulder restraints. Just a thought.
That flume would be a diaster waiting to happen. I'd be interested to see with they implement. But restraints would make the flume that more of a death trap..
This may be why so many rapids rides have velcro seatbelts. They keep you in the boat during regular operation but would tear open with a little force. Maybe these types are what regular flumes should be looking into, if they simply HAVE to be looked into.
Well, this type of restraint is used on the Black Hole at Alton Towers. This is a dark coaster ride where riders site between someone elses legs, in twos. Originally it had seatbelts, but these were replaced with a padded ram which presses against your front. These tend to be pulled back by the ride ops. It's fairly effective, but a (very) sharp brake at the end of the ride makes them painful. Riders also panic at the end of the ride if sometimes it refuses to slide forwards like it should, and requirng assistance.
The reason they laughed is that no sound bite runs anywhere CLOSE to thirty seconds. Sound bites often run under FIVE seconds. One said that if they actually ran 30-second sound bites no one would ever watch TV news, 'cause they'd think it was far too boring.
So even "30 seconds" has become pop-culture shorthand for an abbreviated experience, our pop culture has become so frantic that an actual 30 seconds seems like eternity.
I know, this is totally off topic, but, what the heck. I thought it was a funny story.
As a former CM on Big Thunder Mountain, I can tell you from personal experience that restraints don't stop people from getting out of a ride vehicle on a lift.
And while I'm sure that a restraint can cut down on the number of idiots who actually pull a stunt like that, and I support efforts to make rides as idiot-proof as possible, my line for appropriateness is drawn at the point where a restraint puts the non-idiot public at risk.
I can't imagine an over-the-shoulder restraint on a flume ride that doesn't cross that line. That doesn't mean one might not be possible--I just can't imagine it. Even a seat belt or lap bar for a flume ride needs to be designed with more care than one for a roller coaster or dark ride.
I hope Disney finds a restraint design for its flume rides that truly promotes safety for all its passengers. But I question whether some of the ideas that have been tossed around would actually do that.
As for efficiency, trust me, the slow-down in load and dispatch times to secure and check those restraints will rob Splash of many, many more cycles per day than are lost due to the few jumpers who will be deterred by them.
Reminds me of a kid up here in NorCal who climbed a 10-or-12-foot fence, then proceeded to be electrocuted by the transformer inside that fence. PG&E flew the kid to some burn unit it Texas, which wasn't required of them, and the parents still sued! Why? Because the fence wasn't HIGH ENOUGH! Made me wish one of them had climbed over and reduced their chances of birthing another idiot child.
Anyhow, I don't think load problems would be that much of a problem on Splash Mountain. After the first time out in which no one could see a thing on the ride, I don't think anyone would be racing back on it. Also, many kids would see the shoulder-restraints and anxiously wonder exactly how scary the ride is. It must go upside-down, since those are the kinds of restraints they have on roller coasters! Then there are those of us who won't ride because we understand how top-heavy the restraints would make the logs and how much easier it would be to topple them and kill everyone strapped inside! The final deterrent to many would be that little sign at the end of the queue that states the approximate wait time at FOUR HOURS!
With all the restraint systems out there and all of the technology ANYONE should be able to ride a thrill ride, flume ride or any type of ride for that matter...So if large people shouldn't ride because they are, "wasting," everyones time, how about the child that isn't quite tall enough but is let on the ride anyway??? Or the really skinny person who is kinda frail and may fall out, because they're not bulky enough??? Large people have every right to enjoy what we all can a enjoy, and that is fun and good times.. They wanna design sleek new restriant systems, yet they can't find a way to keep large people in... why not re-desing the restraints postion??? So it'll keep anyone in... Possibly a simple solution, for a problem these safety experts and activist have made such a fuss about..
But yes, Large person comment showed poor taste!!! What ever happen to equity????
It's not just large people who can be discriminated against anyhow. Those with bad spines can't ride a lot of things. Small kids can't ride most of the things in any given park. People with motion sickness also have many problems. And we tall people are forgotten quite often in the designing stages. But we all play the hands we were dealt.
My father is very large (okay, the man is obese!) and he knows he is the reason he got that way. So if he can't climb onto a ride because it cannot restrain him, he knows he only has himself to blame. Yes, there are a lot of people out there who didn't have a hand in their size, but they are a distinct minority. If the restraints were expanded on many rides, especially coasters, then those skinny people you mentioned wouldn't be able to ride safely. Although I have noticed that some coasters now have special seats for larger people. Both I saw had two seatbelts instead of the usual one and the process involved a couple people pushing down on the restraint until it clicked. If you would like to see more of this, let the parks know.
This argument does bring up a very good point. IF Disney does go and add the stupid shoulder-restraints, will size limits needed to be added to the ride? My father was able to ride it before, but I don't see anyone closing one of those things over his gut. This would keep the line even shorter than what I mentioned before!
Yes restraints would be stupid on Flume rides. If you flip, you flip and that's all there is to it. If they could figure out a way to get stupid people to stop standing up. The other day I was riding it and we had to stop because some idiot in front of me was standing up at the top. OOOO! So he thinks he's all macho because he stands up on a ride! Ok anyway
You guys are right about the hight requirement. It should be 48 because those younger kids just don't fit properly in thoes logs. And If you say, "They will be missing part of the magic because they didn't get to ride Splash" Here's what I say
"Do you care about your child's safety, or a ride that they can ride when they get older" You make the ovbious choice
The Disney meltdown sadly continues....
I'm still looking the viablity of this newer restraint system that may allow larger people to ride. As of now it looks viable, but I need a little more time to work out a few kinks, should have more info on March 5th.
I think Disney should stick up a few disclaimers to stop themsleves being sued if these idiots who take their lives into their own hands. Then when they fall out, have someone ready with a rake to dredge them out of the water as soon as possible so my enjoyment isn't spoilt.
I was in the queue at Splash at WDW a few years ago when someone was killed after trying to get out of the log. I don't know the reason behind why they did that so I won't comment on the situation but the incident certainly spoiled my visit (I had to wait another year before I could get my first taste of Splash).
I read a thread on this site about the stupid things people have done at a park and some of the responses were idiotic to say the least. I think parks should concentrate on prosecuting these fools publicly as a deterrant to others and leave the rides alone.
Sorry - rant over!
And that might--not definitely, but might--require Disney to rebuild the entire length of flume to accomodate the new logs. That's why some rumors have the Splash rehab taking more than a year. It'd take that long to fashion new logs and rebuild the flume.
How much easier would it be to put in some seat belts, extra padding, more IR sensors around the flume, and, if Disney really wanted to crack down, up the height requirement to 48 inches?
Granted, a flume ride will never reach the speeds of a race car. But many roller coasters do achieve speeds and G forces comparable to race cars. And a well-designed high, strong, well-padded seat back can help provide head and neck support that prevents injuries when any theme park ride vehicle suddenly stops.
So better seat backs can not only provide added comfort, but safety as well.
As I rode this ride, I couldn't help but to think how this was a great idea that both kept the rider restrained, as well as made escape easy in the event of emergency. ( Like the incident in Texas at that Six Flags park where that woman died when the river-raft ride flipped over and pinned her under the water. )
Perhaps these safe ( and yet easily escaped from ) straps could even be connected to some kind of tension-sensing sensor. One that will alert the ride operator if it is removed for any reason.
I hear the point of that Splash Mountain ride operator, however. Unless you have restraints that secure a person ( against their will ) in the seat, there is no guarantee that the ride operator can do anything when the stupid riders remove their harness just before dropping down the plunge.
Better to err on the side of personal freedoms and let the riders have the rider-released harness for the sake of personal survival. And as for those who die or get injured because they undid their harness? Screw them. That's what they get for being stupid.
But I do NOT want to die because I was on a log ride that flipped over and I drowned because I couldn't get out of the damned ride. The trade-of is not acceptable.
(Oh my God...the MATH GUY is BACK !)
This thread is about the FLUME type of ride. I've ridden several, and can't imagine a log rolling over and dumping the riders out. (If that is a worry, though, there are simple mechanical ways to prevent it.)
I personally don't want to wear ANY restraint gizmoe of any kind on a flume ride. But, if a park decides it is going to put one on us anyway, I agree with Bryan's common sense ideas above ("erring on the side of personal freedom"...a simple can't-even-tell-it's-there rider release made of velcro or something.) Something just enough to say, "Hey, pal, don't stand up on this ride."
Anybody who doesn't take the hint, or the instructions of the ride operator, and un-hooks at the final drop (only to be pitched to his death)...well, Kevin Baxter already said it above: "Maybe they will fall out and improve our gene pool". !!!
Seriously, though, on flume logs rolling over...does anybody know if that has EVER happened ? (In the loading areas of some flume rides, I have noticed the wheels hitting the botttom if too much weight was put on one side or the other.)
Jason, how is your restraint thing going ? (you said, "..should have more information on March 5th")
PRESS RELEASE FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
For More Information, Contact:
Jason Herrera
Herrera Amusement Park Injury Management Services, Inc.
Hapims@aol.com, Program Number 00-1116-DC State of California EMS
Injury Management Company devises breakthrough service for the Amusement/Theme Park Industry.
SANTA BARBARA, CALIFORNIA. — Mar 25, 2002 — Herrera Amusement Park Injury Management Services, Inc. An Injury an Illness management company based in Santa Barbara, CA., today announced the development of an Injury Management program devised solely for the amusement park industry.
Herrera Amusement Park Injury Management Services, Inc. located in Santa Barbara, CA. offers amusement park injury and illness recognition, prevention, and Management strategies, and tactics, as well as methods in Basic Emergency care, for injured patrons and employees.
“We wanted to create a service that would embolden amusement park employees to step forward and feel comfortable enough to help save someone’s life during an emergency.” “ It’s about providing Basic Emergency Care within the first couple of minutes (whether it’s a nose bleed, broken bone or an unconsciousness patron) that could mean the difference between life and death,” said Jason Herrera, founder and CEO of Herrera Amusement Park Injury Management Services, Inc.” Looking at the current status of amusement park safety, not much has changed many patrons still have to wait the sometimes 5-10 minutes for Advanced Medical staff.” Once something goes wrong, amusement park staff has no way of providing Basic medical care, while advanced medical care is in route, this leaves the patron helpless and the patrons around in shock!” “Waiting for advanced medical help without any type of intervention is wrong, parks have informed workers to shut down the ride and call First Aid; parks have also stated that medical help is on-site within a matter of a couple of minutes, well hold your breath for 2 minutes, and you’ll experience the scary reality of waiting for Advanced medical help with no type of intervention.” “I just want to help save a life, and encourage amusement park workers to step forward and during a time of medical need.”
Herrera Amusement Park Injury Management, Inc. is a subdivision of Herrera First Aid, Inc., which was founded in 2000 by Jason Herrera, an Athletic Trainer, and a California State Licensee in Child Care First Aid and CPR.
Herrera Amusement Park Injury Management’s, The 10 Steps to Amusement Park Injury Management, is a workbook that provides the strategies, techniques and tools to enable the amusement park worker utmost confidence during an emergency, and the ability to handle any emergency till advance medical help arrives….
Every time I'm on one of those things I notice how little room there is for the log to move and how very little water there actually is in that flume. I should imagine that only one of out every 100 intentional suicide attempts on a log ride would every end up with a death. Getting drowned on a log ride would have to be that hard. I couldn't cause that thing to flip over if I loaded the log with suicidal people and rocked it side to side as hard as possible.
The circular river raft ride? Oh yeah, those have much more options and unstability to them.
That said, the rumor now is that Splash is going to get a Disney World set-up, with two-by-two seating, and, likely, a lap bar. (This is coming from several sources at the park and online.) It should actually help improve capacity but will mean that Splash will be down until sometime in 2003 as the entire flume will need to be rebuilt to accomodate the wider logs.
This guy with his movie camera hopped on a log and went flying down the thing all the way to the bottom. And of course, he was cranking away on his movie camera the whole time !!! Now THAT'S a flume ride.
I'm going to build one of those someday, and put Jason Herrera on Log #1. If he lives to tell about it, I will hire him as chief safety advisor for the rest of my thrill rides. !!!
Anybody want to go down with me on log #2 ???
I havent made it over to the land of the lawsuit yet, but I can comment on most British and some European theme parks, from the perspective of a 'large' person.
I was at Thorpe Park for the new 10-looping 'Colossus' on Monday, and it took three ride attendants to squeeze me into the seats, as they all seem to be the same size. This is unusual, because most British parks give a small token effort and then tell me I am too big to ride.
Nemesis and Oblivion, both at Alton Towers, have 'larger' seats that I fit into reasonably easily, but some of their non-coaster rides I still struggle with.
Funnily enough, at Blackpool Pleasure Beach, there are a number of 1930s - 1950s wooden rollercoasters, and they are just superb!!
I have been to a number of parks in Northern Europe, and have so far found no problems with any rides, which is good because if the ride operators told me to get off in French or German, I would not have a clue what on earth they were saying.
Anyway....
If I ever got to a water ride of any sort to find the park expected me to be strapped and locked in, there is no way I would get on, and the park would probably get a very abusive visitor to the managers office!
I trust most of you would do the same.
Seeya soon guys!
Part of the experience of Splash Mountain is responsible free motion. It adds a greater thrill to the final drop, and makes the audio-animatronic bits more enjoyable because you can easily look around.
Secondly, if the harness were installed, it would not pose a threat in itself. It is imposible in the "flat" parts of SM for the log to flip because it has wheels and runners the go out sideways. The only place where a log could flip (and this is 1 in a quadrillion) is on the big drop. However, because of gravity itself that is unlikely.
If the restraint were to be put in though, WDI would probably just add a gyroscopic sensor in each log to release the harnesses if the thing flipped. Or WDI would redesign the entire ride control mechanism, and put in new logs.
However, we don't want restraints at all, right? So start writing your letters, making phone-calls, and stop Disney from doing this!
I guess riders would have to wait 3-4 mins for first aid staff to arrive and to begin CPR... Try holding your breath for 3-4 mins... yes, you're in trouble! Oh yeah did I mention... 4-6 mins with out oxygen.. irreversable brain damage may occur!
HAPIMS teaches the basics as well as other thought provoking concepts, that ensure Injury management... Not just CPR... BUT A LOT MORE!
The boat flipping is a non-issue. If there were a possibility of the thing sinking or flipping, Disney would be required to have life-jackets on the logs. Obviously, there isn't a risk. Please . . .
Sorry, gotta jump in here. In my time at Disney, I saw both a Tom Sawyer Island raft and a Pirates of the Caribbean boat sink. Fortunately, people were evacuated from both before they went all the way down.
But neither vessel has life vests. A TSI raft has a single float, in a box at the stern. And that's intended to throw to someone who falls overboard. There are no contingency plans for a mid-river sinking. Just steer it to shore, and hope you get there before the thing goes down.
Any floating vessel can sink. Flume rides can get high water, washing boats out of their flumes. (This happened all the time at Pirates.) Nothing is certain with watercraft.
Granted, I agree that a boat flip on a flume ride like Splash is highly unlikely. But sinking, or tipping to the side in a high water condition are (IMHO) measurable possibilities.
That's why I prefer the plan for Disneyland's Splash (and ultimately, all of them) to go to the wider, Disney World-style logs, but with a lap belt or individual lap bar. It would provide some security, but in a way that would allow people to escape much more easily than with an over-the-shoulder restraint. A wider log might also be more stable in the water, depending upon the distribution of weight.
Just a former operator's $.02.
there is no way disney is going to put over the head restrants. What about the little kids who want to see.. they cant becuase of the sholder crap. When your on a over the sholder restrant rollercoaster try looking to the passengers to your side without leaning forward... u cant do it...
The only need for a sholder restranr is if there is going to be an inversion.
Half of the people who ride flume rides enjoy them because you always feel like your going to fall out over the big drop.... WIth a restrant you would feel too safe and to me it would take the fun away.
